God & Me … or Me & God
… or Just Me
[the sanitized version]
Me: I'm unhappy. Why am I unhappy?
God: Maybe because you don't listen to me.Me: Who are you?
God: God.Me: What God?
God: The guy in charge.Me: How do I know you exist?
God: Well, you're talking to me.Me: How do I know I'm not imagining you.
God: You don't know it; you believe it – or not. So do you believe it?Me: No!
God: Then we're done talking.[years later]
Me: Uh ... You got me thinking. What if I believe you're the guy in charge?
God: That would mean you're ready to do what I tell you to do.Me: What are you telling me to do?
God: Quit doing bad stuff.Me: What bad stuff?
God: All the stuff you think is bad, but do anyway.Me: Well, everybody does stuff like that What do you want me to be? Perfect?
God: Yes.Me: Hey! Nobody's perfect.
God: You asked me what I want you to be That's it I didn't say you had to be perfect Learn to ask for what you want.Me: Ok, a million dollars.
God: Is that what you want most?Me: Most? ... I dunno.
God: Well, think about it.Me: ... Ok Happiness. I always want to be happy.
God: What makes you happy?Me: ... It keeps changing When I was a kid, it was chocolate cake Now it's sex And that's bound to change in the future. I want whatever makes me happy when I want it.
God: Sounds like heaven.Me: Hey, I never said anything about religion.
God: I never said you did.Me: But you're implying it.
God: If I'm your imagination, how do you know you're not imagining that I'm implying it?Me: This is getting creepy.
God: Well, you asked for it.Me: No way!
God: Back when you were a kid. You said, "God, if you're real, please communicate with me." It's on record.Me: But then nothing happened.
God: Because you weren't ready for it. You're just barely ready for it now.Me: Ok, let's say I believe you. What then?
God: Do what I tell you. We've been over this.Me: Ok, well realistically, what do you want me to do?
God: Try to quit doing bad stuff.Me: Or what?
God: Or you'll keep on being unhappy.Me: But I'll be even more unhappy if I stop doing those things.
God: Try it and see.[later]
Me: Ok, I tried it; and I'm unhappier.
God: But you'll be happier in the long run.Me: I don't believe you.
God: So, why are you still talking to me?Me: Good question. Buzz off. I'm an atheist. ... And quit staring at me!
[a decade or so later]
Me: Nothing, nothing, nothing, more nothing. Where is something?
God: I'm something.Me: No you're not. You're my imagination.
God: That's something.Me: It's not enough. I need something solid.
God: Apparently I'm solid enough for you to keep bumping into me.Me: I need something satisfying. You're not even close.
God: Is atheism satisfying? ... Well at least it's liberating, right?Me: Liberating is an understatement. I can do anything I want - think anything I want. I just can't find anything worth thinking or doing.
God: Congratulations. You've found nihilism. Most atheists never get that far.Me: Flattering.
God: Not really. Nihilism is a mind-virus. Its favorite hosts are rational atheists.Me: There are plenty of atheists smarter than me, but they don't call themselves nihilists.
God: It has different definitions. Atheists don't like the label, so they pick the definition they like. And so can you.Me: I don't care about labels. I need something I don't have. I need ...
God: Meaning? Purpose?Me: Yeah.
God: Well, make one up. That's what atheists do.Me: Yes, but ... when I know it's made up, it doesn't work - at least not for me.
God: Are you sure you're even a real atheist?Me: I'm not sure of much of anything.
God: Let's figure it out. You call yourself an atheist because you don't like me. So let's say I'm purely imaginary. Does that mean a real God doesn't exist?Me: No.
God: Also, you've never seen any evidence of a God. Does that mean a real God doesn't exist?Me: Depends on what you call evidence.
God: Not really. Let's say there's zero evidence for a God. Does absence of evidence imply evidence of absence?Me: No, but burden of proof is still on you.
God: It would be if I were making a knowledge claim. But I'm not. I'm only claiming that a God is a rational possibility.Me: Can you prove that?
God: I don't need to. A claim is rationally possible until proven impossible.Me: I can do that too. I'm not saying I know a God doesn't exist. I'm just saying I don't have a belief in a God.
God: If you're not claiming knowledge, why don't you call yourself an agnostic?Me: It's about degree of doubt. If you think a God is less than ... say 5% probable, you might as well call yourself an atheist.
God: Then it's a difference between what something is, and what you might as well call it. Do you even care if a God exists?Me: If there's an afterlife, then yes. If not, then no.
God: Oooh, afterlife. Scared of hell?Me: Not all that lake of fire junk. But there might be some kind of afterlife.
God: And if there is, you want to be happy in it, right?Me: Yeah. So ... is there an afterlife?
God: Yes. But that's what you would have imagined me saying. So why ask?Me: Ok, so if I do what you say, do you promise to make me happy?
God: No.Me: Then what good are you?
God: Good? You mean like a survival advantage?Me: No. How can you claim to be good if you don't make people happy?
God: Never said I was good.Me: Well religionists say you are.
God: What do they know?Me: I don't know what they know. That's the problem.
God: Hmm. Looks like you're going to have to go find out. Doesn't it?Me: What? You want me to go do religion?
God: If you don't, you'll never know. And you're all about knowing, right?Me: [exclamation deleted] Ok, which religion do you want me to believe?
God: Not necessarily any of them. I want you to examine them.Me: Which one is correct?
God: Bad question. I don't answer that.Me: Why not?
God: Because if I did, you wouldn't know if I'm telling the truth. More importantly, there are some answers you don't have any right to until you find them for yourself. You need to figure things out.Me: Ok, then help me figure out which religion is correct.
God: Go study them.Me: What? ALL of them?
God: No. Just enough to be satisfied that you found the best one.Me: That could still take years!
God: Yup. ... Or you could stay in atheism, which in your case means nihilism.Me: [exclamation deleted]
[years later]
Me: Ok, I tried them all.
God: All?Me: Enough. I've seen what's going on, ok. All the ones I've seen are dogmatic and illogical. And I have no reason to think any of the rest are any better. Buddhism works pragmatically, but it's based on Hinduism, and Hinduism is part of pantheism, and pantheism embraces contradiction. The monotheistic ones are all based on some kind of scripture, and they all contradict.
God: What about deism?Me: Is that even a religion?
God: Depends on how religion is defined. Did you check it out?Me: Not much to check out. Deism works logically. It just doesn't offer any guidance, or reason to care if it's true.
God: Ok, then, considering all the religions that offer guidance, which one appears least improbable?Me: Does it matter?
God: Actually, yes. It's important for soul placement in the next life. The more you figure out in this life, the better off you'll be in the next.Me: What if I figure out that I don't even want a next?
God: Then you'll be better off if you figure that out before it's time to decide.Me: Are you saying an afterlife is optional?
God: As long as you have no debts to pay off. So, which religion looks best?Me: ... Well, ... I guess Christianity has the best vibes.
God: Not surprising. The religion of your culture and most of your relatives.Me: Ok, so I'm biased. How can I not be biased?
God: You can't. And it doesn't matter. Your best guess is the one you belong in for as long as it's your best guess.Me: Which denomination of Christianity? ... [exclamation deleted] Bad question, right? You're not giving me much help here.
God: You have no idea how much help I'm giving you.Me: So, why me?
God: You think you're special? Chosen? Hey, I've been talking to people for as long as there have been people.Me: If you do this with everyone, then how do I know you're even on my side?
God: You don't; and I'm not. I'm on my side. I'll be on your side to the extent that I find you useful.Me: Useful? I thought you were supposed to be about love.
God: So says Christianity. See how indoctrinated you are? You're not even a Christian, but you still buy into the Christian mindset, because you grew up in it. I bet you think I'm omnipotent too, right? ... Seriously, why would anything omnipotent create this world? Look at it. Predators and prey, top to bottom. You think I like that? ... So if you live in the Christian mindset, you might as well jump in and do it. ... Or go back to atheism. ... Or just chuck it all, and go have a beer; watch a ball game; chase money; whatever does it for you.[later]
Me: Hey God. I been reading the Bible, and it has me worried about you.
God: Thank you. I'm fine.Me: I mean, even if you're not my imagination, how do I know you're the real God, and not some kind of devil trying to trick me?
God: Well, the Bible talks about me. Holy Spirit. You read all that, right?Me: Then, are you the Holy Spirit?
God: That's what Christians call me. Other religions call me other terms. Secularists call me conscience. I annoy them all.Me: But how do I know you're the God of the Bible.
God: You don't. I never said I was the God of the Bible. I said I'm the real God.Me: Are you saying you're not BibleGod?
God: No.Me: Are you saying BibleGod is not the real God?
God: No. I want you to figure all that out.Me: Are you the Supreme Being?
God: For all practical purposes, from your perspective - yes.Me: Ok, uhh ... But what if I die, and there's an afterlife, and the real God says you were a liar, and I guessed wrong.
God: Good point. So I would suggest that you ask the real God to not allow you to be deceived.Me: What would that prove?
God: Well, then you'll have it on record that you tried your best to not be deceived. So if you are deceived, it's not your fault.Me: Hmm. I'm not sure that's Biblical.
God: It's not. It's not anti-Biblical either. It's rational and just. So go test me, and test the Bible, and see what you find.Me: The Bible says not to test God.
God: The Bible says not to test BibleGod. And it also says to test everything. So, what does that tell you?Me: Testing the Bible can be dangerous. Like, it says pluck out your right eye if it causes you to sin. And looking at a woman with lust is sin.
God: Right. And I'm telling you to not pluck out your eye. So we contradict.Me: Then what am I supposed to do when you contradict?
God: Figure it out. Use logic. If you can't use logic, use common sense. If you don't have common sense, you won't be around long anyway.Me: Wait a minute. BibleGod tells me to believe what I'm told; and you tell me to figure everything out. And I'm supposed to believe you're the same guy?
God: The Bible says we're the same guy. But I'm not saying that. BibleGod is dogmatic; I'm rational. BibleGod wants humility; I want integrity. BibleGod wants faith seekers; I want truth seekers. BibleGod wants worship. I just want a fair hearing.Me: ... This is some deep doodoo.
[years later]
Me: "Seek, and you will find". Right. I found all kinds of stuff, but not what I'm seeking.
God: Good. Keep it up.Me: I mean, belief is confusing all by itself. Some parts of the Bible say I can choose to believe something; and other parts say it's out of my control.
God: Belief is an ambiguous term. It can mean probability judgment, or trust. Usually, if you believe a statement, that means you think it's probably true. That's an involuntary mental act. But you can choose to trust the source or not, and act in accordance with it or not. Those are both voluntary.Me: [think think think] Ok, I believe that. It's obvious. So that's involuntary, right?
God: Right.Me: What about the kind of belief that has to do with salvation?
God: The Bible is unclear on that.Me: Well, isn't that a rather important thing to be clear about?
God: It is for Christians. And it's not clear. So, there you have it.Me: Ok, well then what do you say?
God: I don't say. The question is meaningless to me.Me: Meaning you don't know.
God: Meaning it's a bad question.Me: How come you never answer any questions I don't already know the answer to? You only say what I would have imagined you saying. But I'm supposed to believe you're not my imagination.
God: You believe what you believe. I can handle it either way. ... Look, there's no such thing as salvation. There's only afterlife, and who gets what. The Christians have a right to their own place, and they can call it Heaven if they want. And they can call everywhere else hell if they want. And you can believe if you want; and I don't care if you believe it. I care about getting you to where you belong.Me: What if I don't belong anywhere?
God: Then you quit existing. So go do Christianity and see if you belong there.[years later]
Me: Ok, here I am being a Christian. Going to church. Going to Bible studies. Singing the songs. Pray pray pray. Where's this wonderful plan for my life?
God: Did you read the whole Bible?Me: Cover to cover - most of it several times.
God: Hmm. ... The Christians would say you're not being sincere. Like you don't really believe it.Me: Well, that's why I asked you if belief is voluntary. I believe it all I can! Hell, I even blabbered off in gibberish, assuming it was the gift of tongues. That's as sincere as I get.
God: Do you believe the essential doctrines? Like, do you think the resurrection of Jesus is probable?Me: ... Look. I believe Christianity is the best religion this stupid world has to offer. But the Bible also has some unbelievable stuff.
God: Does it say you have to believe all of it?Me: ... That's hard to answer. Some parts seem to say that.
God: Do other Christians believe all of it?Me: No. ... Well, some say they do.
God: Do you believe them?Me: I don't know. They know the Bible better than I do. Greek and Hebrew, and whatever hermeneutics is.
God: Looks like you're ready for the next level.Me: What level?
God: Bible school. That's the only way to know what you want to know.Me: Hey, I'm not getting any younger. I should be building a work resume, not chasing God around the sky.
God: Then you're welcome to stay on your present level ... or go back to atheism. Or go have a beer.Me: [exclamation deleted].
[4 years later]
Me: Well that sucked.
God: I assume you mean Bible school.Me: They said it all made sense in the original languages. It doesn't. It's worse. I found errors that the translators covered up. Christians are some very nice people, but they're fulla [metaphor deleted] up to their eyes. Some of them are even proud of being dumb. I'm even dumber now than I was as an atheist. And it's all from trying to bend my head around the Bible.
God: Well, bend the Bible around your head. That's what Christians do, isn't it?Me: I don't care; it's a copout. The Bible should be interpreted by logic; not the other way around. They let the Bible interpret the Bible. Anything is correct when interpreted by its own rules.
God: Haven't you found any smart Christians?Me: Just a few, and not smart enough to make sense of the Bible.
God: What would you say if I told you that there are Christians who can resolve any contradiction in the Bible logically?Me: Do I have to say it out loud? Or can you guess?
God: I'm serious. They're called inerrantists.Me: I've heard their stuff. Buncha double talk.
God: Then you haven't heard the good ones. I want you to interact with them. They can teach you a lot.Me: Oooookay.
[years later]
Me: Well, that was a trip.
God: Was I right?Me: Technically, I guess. They resolved the contradictions, but the way they did it was really sleazy. Like, they say you have to look at everything in context - which is fine. But what they mean is, you have to look at enough of the context to allow for enough ambiguity of the passage in question to permit the possibility of the desired interpretation. They have all kinds of copout tactics. If all else fails, they assert different senses of terms. Like, I show them where the Bible says A = B in one place, and A doesn't = B in another place. So they say the statements mean "A" in different senses, or "B" in different senses, or even "=" in different senses. So, they've effectively defined contradiction out of existence, except in pure abstraction.
God: Sounds like you've learned some critical thinking.Me: I had to. They would have tied my head in knots otherwise.
God: Then it wasn't a total waste of time.Me: That remains to be seen.
God: You've already seen it. Now that you can think critically, you can figure out a lot more of the things we both want you to know.Me: Oh. ... Right.
God: And with critical thinking you can figure out more critical thinking.Me: Oh wow! Ok.
God: So go play around on this level, and see what you find.[years later]
Me: Ok, I don't even want Christian heaven. I don't want to spend another life in a world full of Christians. Much less forever.
God: Is this an emotional preference or a rational preference?Me: Both. If you are forgiven as you forgive others, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that the way to beat the system is to cheat more than you are cheated.
God: How so?Me: If I steal $100. and I get $10. stolen from me, and everyone is forgiven, I just made a $90. profit. Like they can't figure that out in Heaven? Or are they no longer forgiven? ... If they're no longer forgiven, then they have to learn to not cheat people by being punished for it. If God could create free will creatures who are somehow magically good, he would have had no reason to create this world at all.
God: What system do you prefer?Me: Justice, of course! Real justice; not Christian justice.
God: What's Christian justice?Me: They say if we do one bad thing, we deserve eternal punishment, no matter how much good we've done. But BibleGod is so righteous, he'll forgive us, and let us worship him forever. I mean, how did this [metaphor deleted] survive so long.
God: Because most people have done enough bad stuff to know they deserve punishment.Me: That doesn't mean we all do.
God: But it works, because the rest are frightened enough to go along with it - and because pretense of knowledge is more comfortable than admission if ignorance. ... Ok, what's real justice?Me: That which is deserved. If you've done bad stuff, then do enough good stuff to make up for it. And brown-nosing God doesn't count as good stuff. Even animals know what justice is. Watch some videos.
God: I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to hear you state it clearly.Me: Why? You know what I mean.
God: My point is that even you don't know what you mean until you can state it clearly. And I need to know when you're ready for the next level.Me: What? There's more??
God: Oh yeah. For example: First, you just wanted happiness. Now you want justice too. What happens when they conflict? Which one do you choose?Me: ... Happiness. The only reason I want justice is because I need it to make me happy.
God: Does behaving justly make you happy? ... Or do you need other people to behave justly in order to make you happy?Me: The second one. ... But I'm willing to behave justly if everybody else does.
God: What if they don't?Me: Then I'll do what I need to do; damn it.
God: You mean what you need to survive?Me: Yes.
God: But you're not even sure you want to survive at all. How does that work? ... Sorry. I guess you're not ready for that question. Just think about this. If you want happiness more than justice, then you deserve to live in a world where everyone else wants the same.[later:]
Me: Ok, happiness is still more important to me than justice, but I can see that justice has to come first. Good enough?
God: That will be fine.[later, 9/11 happens.]
Me: [exclamation deleted]! I'm done with this [expletive deleted] God business!
God: Hey. Baby and bath water. Why blame God for what Muslim religionists did?Me: They were theists like me. They trusted their God all the way. And look what they did. This isn't only unjust; it's flat out insane!
God: They were hardcore scripturalists. They didn't listen to me.Me: They did the best they could to obey God with the knowledge they had. If you didn't keep them sane, how can I trust you to keep me sane? ... And don't tell me that's a bad question.
God: Fair enough. If my answer is not sufficient, you need a break. Let me know when you're ready to talk.[months later]
Me: Ok, let's start this whole thing over. I can see that it's important to get this God business straight, even if there's no afterlife. You say the terrorists did that because they didn't listen to you, right?
God: Right.Me: What about the Crusades and Inquisition and all that?
God: Same thing. They blocked me with scripture.Me: Then the problem is scripture, right? People believe you inspired some book; and the book tells them everybody else is evil.
God: Close. Scripture is a record of human efforts to relate to me - or manufacture me if you prefer. it's not good or bad; it's just part of history. You're supposed to learn from it.Me: So did you inspire it, or not?
God: I'm sure I inspired bits and pieces of it indirectly; but it really doesn't matter. Scripture would have evolved whether inspired or not, because that's what minds do to stay out of nihilism. But scripture becomes spiritually worthless after minds evolve beyond it. The problem is scripturalism - the idea that I inspire people to write things that are true and binding on future generations. Scripturalism is another mind-virus. It's the one on the right, as opposed to nihilism on the left. It's for people who want spiritual security, but don't want to deal with me directly, because they're afraid I'll make them crazy, or worse yet - poor. So they put anything available between me and them. First it was priests and popes and caliphs. Now It's scripture.Me: Then you can't blame atheists for being atheists.
God: I don't even blame God-haters. Minds have a right to evolve. Some ideas are obviously wrong; but others have to be worked out from the inside. Mind-viruses happen. If you're not inoculated to them in this life, you'll have to deal with them in the next. That's why it's important to figure things out.Me: What if I figure out that I don't even want a next?
God: Then you'll be better off if you figure that out before it's time to decide.Me: Are you saying an afterlife is optional?
God: As long as you have no debts to pay off - then yes.Me: And if we do more good stuff than bad stuff, we deserve reward, right?
God: That's a bit simplistic, but essentially yes.Me: What's the reward? Promotion to the next rung on the predator ladder?
God: If that's all you deserve - yes. If you want to live in a post-predator world where everybody wants only what they deserve, then you're just going to have to prove worthy of it.Me: If life is this exasperating, then why create it at all?
God: Because I'm not omniscient, and the only way to know what happens when you do something is to do it.Me: That's pretty lame.
God: Morally inexcusable is the term you're looking for. And it would be exactly that if I don't provide an afterlife, in which everyone gets what they deserve.Me: So people who get screwed over in this life get compensated in the next
God: If they're unjustly disadvantaged, then yes.Me: Any way I can know that's true?
God: Nope. There's just me saying it. But you can figure out that it's the most sane and sensible of the available options.Me: If there's an afterlife.
God: Right. If there's not, then whoever dies with the most toys wins.Me: Ok, if I do what you say, will it make me sane or insane?
God: Sane - as you expected me to say. The first step is to get your priorities straight. Which do you want more, happiness or sanity?Me: Happiness or sanity! [exclamation deleted] If we have to choose, then all life is a rip-off!
God: You've seen what the world is like. If you're happy, but not sane, you won't be happy for long. If you're sane, but not happy, you can figure out how to get happy.Me: I can also figure out that I may never get there.
God: Lasting happiness is possible in an afterlife, but not on the predator level.Me: How do I know it's possible anywhere?
God: You don't. You've been chasing happiness all your life. What have you found?Me: Nothing.
God: Don't exaggerate. You've found a few good times, but not nearly enough to justify the unhappiness. What is it called when you keep doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? ... So, what have you got to lose?Me: I need to mull this over.
God: Take whatever time you need.Me: Hey, did you set me up for this?
God: Bad question.[later]
Me: Ok, let's do it.
God: Sanity over happiness? ... I need to hear you ask for it.Me: So you can use it against me later?
God: Yes. But you can always change your mind.Me: ... Ok, I'm asking for it.
God: Finally, you're starting to get interesting. You are now in uncharted territory. Go chart it. That's your purpose.Me: How is that a purpose?
God: Because it's necessary to help future explorers and pioneers find the next theological upgrade after scripturalism. Which is necessary to give your species a better chance of surviving the predator stage. Which is necessary for me to create a life system that doesn't self-destruct. That enough purpose for you? ... OK. So, go report what you find, map the land, talk straight, don't sugar coat, and don't pretend to know anything you don't know. Look for colleagues, not disciples. The world doesn't need another cult.Me: People will accuse me of making it all up.
God: And for all you know, they may be right. Now, proceed with CAUTION. I want you to ask for correction of errors - repeatedly. And be advised that error correction is usually stressful. When you get over-stressed, it's ok to back off and take a break. So ... We good? Or should I find somebody else?